using the system
I recently asked friends if they are investing - ETFs, shares, other stuff.
Surprisingly, while the most didn't, there were some who did. Even saying they invest "a couple hundred" a month. It even surprised my spouse. It made us think of some people differently; not negatively, just rethinking where they are in life and what they're spending on. You got the impression with some of them that they don't have enough money in general (rejecting stuff because no money), much less having enough to justify investing, so it came as a surprise that they put hundreds into that. Especially as a student? Wild.
A discussion started about the ethics of it... since if you are investing into the things that do the best and give the most money back, you are usually investing into oil, war, meat, tech, pharma etc. and some of these are downright bad, some are questionable at least. Someone said that the banks invest your money into these things anyway, and if you do it too into more ethical investments, you can change that a bit at least. Which doesn't really make sense to me because if you invest via TradeRepublic into ETFs, that doesn't stop the bank from investing with the rest of your money in the bank? It's just double, more investments and participation in that weird predatory system that rewards perpetual growth, enshittification, exploitation.
Also, more discussions about how being rich isn't per se unethical - which I found wild to hear from an anticapitalist, a leftist? Where ever there is profit, someone wasn't paid enough. You can only get rich through paying a worker less than what the product made, and if you get payouts because a company did well, it is because of those profits. Then there's day trading too, which is lowkey gambling with people's livelihoods and jobs in a way, but I don't wanna get into that, especially as none of the people are day traders (yet).
And when I said I can't control what the bank does with my money because I need a bank to hold my money and process it, but I can choose not to invest and therefore lessen unethical investments on my part, the response of that person was that I am just losing money and "Suffering/poverty is not a virtue".
Which I find wild because investing does not save you from suffering or poverty. At all. You can sink money into it and lose it all, it is not as liquid as it is in your bank account for an emergency, and you are beholden to a lot of geopolitical events and decisions. Some asshole like Trump coughing the other way can ruin your portfolio. That, and there is a lot of space between not investing and suffering.
Not investing doesn't make you poor. You can go your entire life being able to afford food, a home, and recreation, and probably even a family without investing - depending on your job, location, and possible generational wealth. If you can't, that is not because you aren't investing, it is because of systemic and political failures. Investing won't even meaningfully save you from being unable to afford this, because you have to have money over to spend. To put it in investing, you have to be okay with never seeing again. Which tends to not be the case if you can't afford the above. And you have to invest a ton (or little over a long amount of time, consistently) before it amounts to something, and most will never reach a sum where they can live off of passive income from investing, or it meaningfully supplementing their income.
So, not investing is most of the time not suffering or living in poverty, especially not as a choice. It isn't living in an ascetic way to be more ideologically pure or handicapping oneself to a shitty life just to not participate. Also, be so for real right now: There is a difference between living a slightly less well-off, and suffering. I think we have lost our way in that regard, always aiming for the most financial success, the bigger house, the bigger car, even more vacations, even further away. It seems many are not okay with living an average life that is good enough. That's sad. And you can see it in that discussion, where not investing and not getting a bit of returns from a system you hate is seen as suffering for virtue. If my life is good enough without investing, why bother participating if I have ethical concerns?
Personally, I'd rather be poor than participate in something I find terrible that I can avoid; I don't expect this from others, but I do want to point out that an average life here is already better than most of the world, is something you can be proud of and happy with, and it seems ungrateful and greedy to pretend not maximizing your money is bad. It's peak individualism. And of course it is fine to participate in the system you criticize, I don't wanna go "You criticize the system, yet you participate in it. Curious!" I can't choose my participation in many parts, but the ones I can choose, I do. It affects my consumer behavior, where I work, and other things - investing is among them.
I don't like that many people see how shitty capitalism is and criticize it and want something else, but also seem to have the view that, as long as it is not getting changed any time soon, they should participate as much as possible in it and get their part, get what they can out of it. Like "the system fucks us all, might as well make the best of it" which I honestly don't want for myself. I feel weird trying to extract value out of this system outside of what I absolutely must. I don't wanna think it is okay to play the game and buy into it like a future wannabe billionaire as long as I get something out of it - like, "fuck all the animals, fuck the people in Bangladesh, etc etc. as long as I can get cheap clothes, eat meat, make profit via Nvidia, and get my own house." I'm not wired that way. Seeing the world that way got us here in the first place and is something we deeply fault boomers for.
Investing is participating in a system that rewards those who are already well-off enough to even do it, who have access to certain information and education, can handle gambling and risk well, and many who don't give a fuck that they are profiting off of companies doing well that actively kill us, poison us, destroy the environment, and more. It rewards people with parents who start you early, too. It's often presented as this equalizer, as some nice system for the every day lowlives to make an additional buck no matter who or where you are, but I don't buy it. It depends too much on access and existing wealth.
If the numbers go up, you know Rheinmetall has delivered tools to kill once again and made money off of human suffering, and Nvidia helps AI advancement and all problems that come with it, and companies like Pfizer, Novo Nordisk, Bayer etc. have once again successfully held treatments and cures hostage behind horrific fees and contracts, etc. etc.
I don't know why you'd want that little bit of blood money; the good sustainable ethical stuff is just not nearly as successful.
Even if we buy into the fact that this helps ensure financial security in the future - that means we are systematically starved by the system (issues with affording groceries, affording rent, affording a house, affording children, issues with pensions and retirement for future generations ...) so that we invest the little we have into their companies again who squeeze the world and us dry and don't pay us enough. And we do that because saving the money in a bank account is presented as not good enough, as wasted, as yielding you less than it could on the market; when in reality, it is there and if big whales in the space start selling like crazy, they just take your money with you. You are, in worst case, enriching others.
My spouse said something I agree with as well: That they don't think of bank money as needing to yield revenue, to generate more money. They think of the bank as an institute that needs to hold their money and that's it. I agree. I never once felt like the money in my bank account should magically procreate to be more. It's digital numbers to pay for stuff. I don't care if that view is childish. I think it's normal if you aren't completely capitalism-poisoned.
Also, fittingly:
